| Author | Message | ||
     Kasey |
Kristy, Your scenario regarding the likelyhood of obtaining useable prints from a firearm is not out of line with normal or average case results. I believe one Califirnia study obtained an average latent print recovery rate of 10% on firearms. This is due to a multitude of factors, including that most guns are "oiled" to prevent rust, and that same oil makes the deposition of useable latent prints more rare than other surfaces. There are many other factors as well, which can be discovered by a search of this board for "matrix surface environment touch". Regards, -Kasey | ||
| kristy joy |
Also added to my question about prints on guns of a suicide is this, no prints whatsoever were found on the gun.. Any input would be very appreciated. thanks | ||
| kristy joy |
I have a question about fingerprints on guns. If a young man, who is highly intoxicated, shoots himself in the temple with small handgun, is it possible that he will leave no prints??? And if it is, then what are the percentages of people who do not leave prints in this scenario?? | ||
| Steve |
Hi Caroline, Sorry, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a child's prints and an adult's if the physical size of the hands were similar. You could make assumptions, but that would be dangerous. You also cannot tell sex from the ridge detail of a fingerprint. Many of the prints that examiners deal with on a daily basis are much smaller than the entire finger too. Sometimes it isn't known until a print is identified if it came from a portion of a finger or a palm (or even a foot, for that matter). | ||
| Caroline Upcher |
Hi, I am the author of 8 published novels both in the US and UK. My 9th has a crime story in the background, the first time I have attempted to do this. For my research, I have a very simple question. Is it possible to determine the sex and the age of a human when their fingerprints are found? To what extent does the size of the print determine this? e.g. is it possible to tell if the print is that of a child or an adult with small hands and feet - and whether it is a male or a female? I would welcome and email enligtening me. Thank you. Caroline Upcher | ||
| TAS |
Shalala; Determination of time since death is a difficult matter, particularly in a water environment. A collaborative study which I'm vaguely aware of (Simon Fraser University - Vancouver Public Aquarium - Canadian Coast Guard - Canadian Amphibious Search Team - Royal Canadian Mounted Police) studied the arthropod succession, that is, underwater critters feeding, on pig carcasses at varying depths in the ocean. I'm in no position to comment on their findings but the information may be available by searching the net. A similar study has been attempted in the Great Lakes, but again, I'm unable to report on that. The easy answer is that your deceased died sometime between when last seen alive, and when found in the water- minus the number of days that the attending pathologist attributes to decomposition - and this will likely be in the form of a range of days or weeks. Since this site is dedicated to fingerprint issues, I'll sign off here and wish you luck in your further research. | ||
| Shalala |
Terry, Thank you very much for such knowledgeable information. I'm very ignorant in forensic and police procedure, which makes me wonder why I'm even writing a murder mystery...lol, but...My victim was found in a flooded area, under water. Hmm...this leads me to another question...how do professionals determine how long the body has been there? The temperature is in the low 90s, which I suppose would make the flood waters relatively warm, since they are standing waters, and not flowing. Thanks again | ||
| Terry A. Smith |
Shalala, In response to your first question, decomposition of human remains is dependent upon various environmental factors including - but in no way limited to - the corpse's exposure to air, heat, water/humidity, insect and animal life, chemicals,...the list goes on and on. It may interest you that presently there is an exhibit on display at the Canadian Museum of Civilization - called "The Mysterious Bog People". The exhibit includes human remains which are thousands of years, yes THOUSANDS, old! "The exhibition explores the scientific techniques and forensic analysis used to determine the age of the objects found in the bogs and the physical characteristics of human remains, even to the contents of the individual's final meal." Although I haven't seen the exhibit personally (I was there earlier this month, and the exhibit was closed at the time), I'm of the understanding from a friend who has seen it, that the friction ridge skin (fingerprints - footprints) is preserved to some degree. As for the second question, I assume you are referring to the deceased's friction ridge skin - for identification purposes. Water temperature is one key factor, with cooler waters slowing down the decomposition and warmer waters speeding it up. I would expect no problem in obtaining the fingerprints of a 3-day victim in either case. 3 months, now that's a different story, as the outer layer of skin on the hands and feet tends to separate and eventually become detached from the corpse, leaving the lower layer (dermis) exposed to environmental and decompositional influences. I hope this is helpful. | ||
| Shalala |
Doing some research for a novel. How long does a person's fingerprints stay intact after death? Also, Can you still lift prints from a body which has been expired and under water for three days? What about footprints? Thanks for your help. | ||
| Phil |
SPD officers stated in press releases they only went to extreme measures because this was such a popular case and they wanted to satisfy everyone involved. The case was a unique one. The medical examiner stated -minutes- after arriving at the scene, to the press on hand, that it was an "obvious case of suicide." I feel the pressure from the media had something to do with all of this. Like I said, the shotgun was not tested until approximately 27 days after it was found. By this time the death certificate of the victim had been signed, it had long been established as a suicide by the police department and medical examiner's office, etc. | ||
| Steve |
One thing regarding the suicide/homicide aspect is that latent prints were lifted from the shotgun (assuming, of course, that this is correct information). How often are "suicide" scenes processed for latent prints? I don't know, off hand, of anyone from my office who has ever been called out to process a suicide for prints. If a death was ruled homicide or at the least "questionable" yes, but not for something ruled a suicide - as is stated on coderedonearth.com site. This leads me to wonder why the items were processed if it was so quickly "established" to be a suicide??? Any thoughts? | ||
| Webmaster |
Mr. Matta, you may quote it, but please include the caveat that the author does not purport that it represents the position or opinion of his employer or any organization with which he is affiliated... it is just his personal opinion. In general, fingerprint experts try to keep a neutral position about investigations... we don't care whether the suspect committed the offense or not... whether it was a suicide or a murder. Our job is to serve justice by attempting to determine the truth from the latent print evidence. We try to ignore much of what investigators, victims, suspects and witnesses say or think about the case. Many times the physical evidence proves police and witnesses completely wrong and any fingerprint expert who has been in the business for a few years has had the experience of turning a case completely around when victims' or witnesses' prints were found where they should not have been. We also try to avoid being "pushed" by any urgency from public opinion when it comes down from police administrators or politicians as pressure to hurry-up and complete a case. We cannot do everything possible in every case, but we try to do the best we can within manpower and other resource limitations. Those who have worked with me in past decades have on occasion heard some of my favorite phrases: "People are the biggest liars there are. If we cannot get them through their fingerprints, God will get them later. As long as we do our best to find the truth, we can sleep well at night." | ||
| Phil |
Your response is much appreciated. Do I have permission to post this on my site? It will remain unedited unless you request something be removed. Thanks again. | ||
| Webmaster |
Dear Phil Matta, From your posted e-mail address it appears you are writing to inquire about latent print examination procedures as they might relate to the shotgun and other evidence processed in the Kurt Cobain (April 1994) death investigation case. Your website indicates that you believe it was a homicide despite the official ruling that it was a suicide. The short answer about the latent print evidence is that the absence of identifiable latent finger and palm prints is neither consistent nor inconsistent with a suicide or a carefully planned murder made to look like a suicide. The absence of identifiable latent finger or palm prints on a shotgun and shells is common in any kind of investigation for the many reasons mentioned in the FAQs at this website. The oily coating periodically applied to most firearms (to keep them from rusting) can complicate the recovery of identifiable latent prints. Your posting indicates that four latent print lift cards of illegible finger/palm impressions were lifted from the shotgun. That means the person or persons who processed the shotgun for latent prints detected what appeared to be friction ridge detail (finger or palm prints) in one or more areas on the shotgun and then lifted that ridge detail and carefully preserved it for examination to determine if sufficient quantity and quality of ridge detail was present to enable identification against Kurt Cobain, crime scene technicians, investigators, ambulance/coroner personnel, etc. The absence of identifiable latent prints on a weapon could be consistent with a weapon being wiped-clean by murderers before the responding medical and law enforcement personnel accidentally deposited their impressions on the shotgun and their (law enforcement/medical personnel) impressions thus were what was lifted... or it could be consistent with a suicide and by chance the victim's impressions developed and lifted were just not enough to be identifiable. In general, latent print evidence can only prove who touched a surface and deposited identifiable latent prints. It cannot prove that anyone else did not touch that surface. It cannot prove who touched that surface and left fragmentary but unidentifiable latent prints. It normally cannot prove when a latent print was deposited (hours/days/weeks/months, etc., before detection). Mr. Matta, I hope this is clearer than mud. Anything is possible and the physical evidence you cite concerning the latent print evidence does not by itself provide a definitive picture of the manner of death. It does indicate though, that the person or persons processing the evidence made an attempt to lift from the shotgun what they believed were potentially identifiable latent prints. Best wishes, --Webmaster | ||
| Inquirer |
I am studying a case in which a shotgun was found in a victim's hands. The case was ruled a suicide. The gun was examined one month later for fingerprints. Four cards of latent and illegible prints were found. I'd like to know how often -legible- prints are found on shotguns and if it is a normal occurrence for this to have happened. Would waiting a month to examine the gun affect this? I'm looking for answers and any relevant statistics that have been compiled on this. Thank you. |
